IS THAT A FACT?
The future of newsrooms: Innovation and authenticity
Season 3 Episode 4
In today’s episode of our podcast Is that a fact?, guest LaSharah Bunting, CEO and executive director of the Online News Association, discusses how digital innovation has allowed newsrooms to create deeper connections with their audiences so they can better understand the needs of the communities they serve. For Bunting, there is no newsroom innovation without employing digital tools to create pathways for two-way conversations between those reporting the news and those consuming it.
Is that a fact? is a production of the News Literacy Project, a nonpartisan education nonprofit building a national movement to create a more news-literate America. Our host is Darragh Worland, our producer is Mike Webb, our editor is Timothy Kramer, and our theme music is by Eryn Busch.
Darragh Worland:
Society’s entry into the digital age has impacted every industry, but perhaps none more than journalism. The way news is reported, published, and delivered has changed dramatically in a short period of time. When newsrooms moved their reporting online, new avenues of storytelling opened up, giving journalists more ways to connect with audiences. Stories could be enhanced with images, audio, video, clickable databases, interactive maps, and most anything creative people could dream up to expand their readers’ understanding of a report. This kind of change doesn’t always come easy in the news business, but for some, it can be an invigorating challenge.
LaSharah Bunting:
“How could I create space for reporters to try something new, to train them on how to do it, and, really, getting the staff to think 360 about storytelling, to not just come to me or to others and say, ‘I want to write a story on x, y, z. I’m hearing about something really interesting. What is a way to be able to tell that story?’ And I think seeing that shift on the National Desk really sparked my passion for what was possible… Transformation takes a lot of time, a lot of focus, a lot of patience. I found that people want to get there, you just have to show them the path forward.”
Darragh Worland:
That’s LaSharah Bunting, the CEO and executive director of the Online News Association, a membership organization whose mission is to inspire and support innovation and excellence in digital journalism. Bunting began her career in journalism at a time of seismic change in the industry, starting at The Dallas Morning News and then spending more than 13 years at The New York Times. At The Times she was an assignment editor, a breaking news editor, and a senior editor for digital transition, where she led an initiative to improve the staff’s digital skills and coordinated the organizational shift to digital reporting. She left The Times to become director of journalism for the John S. and James L. Knight Foundation where she helped fund digital transformation of newsrooms. Full disclosure, she worked with NLP on a grant while she was there.
This is “Is that a fact?” and I’m Darragh Worland. We invited Bunting to help us understand where journalism is headed.
Here’s our conversation.
Darragh Worland:
When I look at your list of accomplishments, a common thread that surfaces for me is one of innovation – digital innovation, cultural innovation, being the first woman of color to serve as CEO and executive director of the Online News Association. What does innovation mean to you as a journalist?
LaSharah Bunting:
So, I take a very broad view. It means pushing the boundaries of technology to elevate our storytelling and our products. It means of ending the old to make space for something new, something refined, something better, something more inclusive. But for me it also means exploring new means for sustainability in journalism. When I think of innovation in journalism, I think about those type of things, new ways that we are all trying to survive, whether it is the proliferation of nonprofit news, getting people and foundations and communities to understand the importance of investing in journalism, much like we do the arts. And it also means ensuring equity in our field. You can’t have true innovation without equity, and that’s a piece that I don’t hear or see enough of, but I really think that’s an important piece to really any conversation about innovation. If we’re moving from here to there, it requires us to think about what are those cultural norms that need to be upended.
Darragh Worland:
Newspapers were notoriously slow to adapt to the digital world, but The New York Times has become kind of a digital success story. Can you talk about your role in helping to drive digital innovation at The Times?
LaSharah Bunting:
So, I was an early digital evangelist in our newsroom. I was hired at The Times, I was 25 years old, hired as an editor and I found the people who were in the newsroom, my same age were web producers. So that sort of social connection I was making with them became one that was professional and helped my career and how I thought about storytelling and journalism. I was surely one of the first assignment editors to learn how to use our web CMS, know how to post stories and starting to really truly think about the opportunities on the web. At some point, I had moved to the National Desk where I was overseeing breaking news and the daily report online and then part of my job grew to be the multimedia report. And I took that job as an opportunity to be the change that I wanted to see in the newsroom.
How could I create space for reporters to try something new, to train them on how to do it? I had great joy seeing bureau chiefs shooting video on their phone or being out reporting on something and thinking, “Oh, I don’t have a photographer or videographer with me, but maybe I’ll shoot some video here.”
And really getting the staff to think 360 about storytelling, to not just come to me or to others and say, “I want to write a story on x, y, z.” (or) “I’m hearing about something really interesting. What is a way to be able to tell that story?” And I think seeing that shift on the National Desk really sparked my passion for what was possible after I left the national desk to create our digital transition team that work included building up the team, but I also spent time embedding in the DC Bureau working with department heads on what are those practical changes that are necessary to move organization like The Times to be truly digital first. Transformation takes a lot of time, a lot of focus, a lot of patience. I found that people want to get there, you just have to show them the path forward.
Darragh Worland:
Yeah, what you’re describing sounds like, what I remember from my journalism days early on when it was very separate, it was like you were either working on the website or you were on the print side, and maybe eventually there was some video incorporated, but that was separate. And it sounds like what you’re talking about is “let’s look at this holistically, let’s think about it all as it’s all storytelling.”
LaSharah Bunting:
Absolutely. When I joined The New York Times in 2004, I can remember my orientation included having to walk to the web digital newsroom, which was in a whole other building. And so now we think about that and think “That’s crazy. How was that even happening?” But that was the natural evolution of how all newsrooms went through their own digital transformation. I (am) really lucky and fortunate to have done this work at The Times in a place where it is an incubator for innovation. There is a certain openness and willingness for experimentation for all of us and to try something new. And that I think is one of the reasons why The Times has been so successful.
Darragh Worland:
So, you really came up in this new digital era, but there’s been some expressions of nostalgia for the way things used to be in the world of journalism. And I’m just curious, is there any sense of nostalgia in you for the way things used to be? There is this sense of days gone by when the news media had more power, more gravitas, more of a sense of heft in the world and I’m just curious as to where you stand on this.
LaSharah Bunting:
So, I will tell you first, I grew up where the print newspaper was king. It was very much a part of the ritual of our daily lives. As a kid I can remember going down to the news stand in downtown Omaha – I’m from Omaha, Nebraska – with my mom or my dad to get the Sunday regional papers. So, we had the Omaha World-Herald delivered to the house, but my mom wanted the Des Moines Register, she wanted the Chicago Tribune. And if it wasn’t too expensive, maybe even The New York Times. And so, there’s a certain sense of nostalgia that comes from that, that sort of moment in the family and in the household where we’re all reading the paper – papers plural – throughout the week. And I love that so much. That said, I tend to not so be nostalgic about the past. The good old days of journalism, even generally speaking, weren’t good for everyone.
And I think that’s an important piece that we have to talk about when everyone wants to wax poetic about, “Remember when we had so much power?” And I think inherent in that, “Remember when we didn’t have to listen to our audiences and pay attention to what they wanted?” And it’s like, but that’s not good. The power in where we are now … we can engage with the audience is better. We had certain assumptions about who our audience was, or the size of our audience based on written subscription numbers. Now some people are getting their feelings hurt when they see just how many people or how many few people are reading their stories. I think it’s a natural evolution to where we are, and I think it’s an important place that we are now, and we can’t really look to the past too much.
Darragh Worland:
So, what’s gained from this, the shift that’s happened, particularly talking about audience and power. Who was holding the power when newspapers had so much power? Earlier you were talking about issues of equity, for example. What are some of the advantages of digital publications and where we are now?
LaSharah Bunting:
Right. So, the move to digital (has) democratized news and information in many ways. When I think about what I love about the digital piece, it’s that the person who writes that story in Mississippi Today gets far wider reach than it would’ve in the past. Just strong, hard-hitting, amazing journalism that really is mostly relevant only to the people in that community but gets wider attention. That’s a wonderful, beautiful thing because I like to believe that that has a catalytic effect for the rest of the country. If we see certain areas of the country that are really well-covered, I’m thinking about the Pulitzers that just came out. We see this amazing local journalism that’s elevated, my hope – and perhaps naively – is that more investment can be put into news organizations at that level.
Now, to continue a little bit of a thought is one of the downsides to the digital pieces as opposed to print … I worry that not everybody has access. Not everyone has broadband fast speed internet. I’m thinking of poorer areas, rural areas. Not everyone has places that have the infrastructure. Not everyone can afford a subscription to a digital outlet and some of these local news organizations that have really hard paywalls, it makes me concerned … are we creating a society of haves and have nots when it comes to news and information. So that’s a little of the good and the bad with the digital.
Darragh Worland:
That’s an interesting point. And how does that compare to the pre-digital age? I tend to be a supporter of the subscription model online because I know as a former journalist that the business model particularly now is tricky. It’s sustainability for news organizations is an ongoing issue. But then I am also aware of the issue of access and equity in terms of equal access to news. How does it compare? And then what are some of the solutions?
LaSharah Bunting:
I’ve thought a lot about this, and so do I necessarily think print was better and had a better reach because maybe you could grab a free copy somewhere … I don’t know that necessarily one is better, but if there are fewer print products out there and there’s more digital and more paywalls up on that digital, is that just a harder barrier to climb? I don’t want to be so nostalgic to print to say, “Yes, that was the solution, that was the way.” But I think it’s important to think about what are the impacts of the subscription model. I think it’s important for news organizations to be obsessed with their sustainability in a way that people just haven’t been because they didn’t have to be. I don’t know that I’m convinced that subscriptions alone are the solution. There’s going to be a cap in any community, in any audience, with any news organization of the people willing to pay for it. And I don’t believe that that number is ever going to reach or outpace the lost revenue in advertising. So how do we make up that shortfall?
Darragh Worland:
What do you think of the nonprofit model or does that have the same sort of cap on it? Because ultimately a nonprofit model in many ways is supported by donors, either philanthropy or individual donors.
LaSharah Bunting:
I think nonprofit have been an important way to be able to diversify the revenue and how we think about sustainability in news organizations, less reliance on those things that can be fickle. But the truth is philanthropy can also be fickle. Donations can also be fickle. And so, I think we just have to continue to see how that plays out over time. I want to believe that with part of the push with nonprofit, it’s also helping the public to see journalism as a public good that requires deep investment. And so, could it be that over time more people donate, more people become members, more people subscribe right to the for-profit because they see it as (an) important piece of the democratic process.
Darragh Worland:
Mm-hmm. And those who can pay are paying to sustain it and those who can’t still have access.
LaSharah Bunting:
And that’s the ideal situation. How can we ensure that those people still have access.
Darragh Worland:
With the proliferation of online sources of information, social media, YouTube, TikTok, what’s it been like for journalists, including yourself, to adapt and keep up with the changing digital landscape?
LaSharah Bunting:
For many, it’s been challenging. In some cases, you go to journalism school, and you understand this is the path forward, this is the way forward, this is how things are done. And then all of that gets upended. There’s a certain kind of person that sees that and gets excited about that – the opportunities, the challenges – and is eager to tap into the innovation piece of that. And there are those who just don’t want to be bothered, who cannot switch their brain to where it needs to be. There are those who are unwilling to get out of the past, but I really do believe that there are more people than not who want to tap into these new spaces and want to understand how best to use them. In many ways, people just need the guidance on where to start and what the strategy should be.
Darragh Worland:
Is there a saturation point though? Is there a point at which a journalist is stretched so thin? I think as news consumers, many of us feel this, you feel like an octopus, your hands, whatever, are in so many different social media platforms. At a certain point the content is so surface because you can’t really get too deep into any of it. And I would imagine that that would also be a risk for journalists.
LaSharah Bunting:
Oh, absolutely. The truth of the matter is, in many of these newsrooms, you only have so many journalists who are working. And the true fact is you only have so much time and you have to make really hard choices about what you will start doing and what you’re going to stop doing and what to lean into and what not. And when I think about that and I sort of see news organizations not doing what they could be or not experimenting, I never ever think that it’s because they don’t want to. I think it’s because they can’t, they don’t have the resources, they don’t have the time, they don’t have the money, they don’t have the expertise in some cases to be able to deliver. And that’s a true tragedy because the truth is you want to be where people are. It’s no longer the case that I’m typing in miamiherald.com into my browser. I wait for it to come to me, whether it’s a newsletter or if I’m on Instagram.
Darragh Worland:
Why are more news organizations not on TikTok and not using TikTok to their advantage? Is that just because they’re kind of being late adopters and they will eventually get on it and realize that there’s a way to use it?
LaSharah Bunting:
So, I think part of it’s the resources issue, but putting that aside, I think people don’t know what to do. It could feel intimidating. It can feel if you’re coming from a place of it has to be perfect, then you’re never going to start. Right? And anyone in the digital space, it’s like just ship out the thing that feels really good for now and will continue to iterate and improve over time. And some people just don’t have that approach or mentality, right? It’s like, “Let’s create a plan, let’s put it out.”
And anybody who’s on TikTok myself knows that anything that’s too polished isn’t necessarily going to do well. Authenticity is what drives the content there. As an observer, I love seeing the reporters talk about their stories. I love seeing them get on and talk about what it took to report it, the challenges, how they think about the reaction. Those are the things that I like to see. And I think still for some people in newsrooms, there’s a little bit of uncomfortableness with showing that personal side alongside the story. We all learn: (the) story’s not about us. We are out there reporting and putting the story out there. We should not make it about us.
Darragh Worland:
I wonder if we’re still in a transition though, from the older way of doing things. That we’re not entirely comfortable yet – whether it’s as journalists or the public. Because I still think you can face criticism, both from your peers as a journalist – I’m speaking as a former journalist now – and from the public, if you do show your humanity, but you can also gain trust. That leads me actually to my questions about trust. Because we’re at a point in time where Americans’ trust in the media to report the news fully, accurately, and fairly has been hovering at historic lows in recent years according to several surveys. And I don’t want to flatten the nuance in that because there’s many, many factors that go into why that is the case. But just to give some statistics, just 26% of Americans say they trust most of the news most of the time according to a 2022 study by the Reuters Institute for the Study of Journalism. What’s interesting though is that local news outlets are seen as more credible these days. So, what’s your assessment of what’s going on?
LaSharah Bunting:
It’s interesting that split, and I think you trust the people who you see or who are part of your community who understand your experience, even if it’s not the same. So, there’s a little bit of trust there, you might run into them at the grocery store. There’s trust in feeling like this is someone who understands what it means to live here because they’re here too. But just to pull back on the broader question of trust, I think there is a lot that news organizations and the media can do to demystify the reporting experience, to explain better what that looks like, how things come together. And I think in the last couple years we’ve started to see some of that. I think The Daily [a podcast presented by The New York Times] is a one great example of coming on and talking about a story and how it came to be. And pulling back that curtain was always a really powerful tool for readers.
I say that, but then I also say, I wonder if that’s the super fans or do the average readers or consumers of news really care about that? But I think it’s an important thing to put out there for people to really understand how the story came to be, what it looks like now, how we’re thinking about reporting on it in the future. That community engagement and interaction is crucial to building and rebuilding that trust. And I don’t think journalists do a great job of listening. Even if a news organization doesn’t want to be on TikTok officially, they should still be on TikTok to listen, as they should be on Facebook to listen, as they should be on Instagram to listen – to understand what people in their community, the people whom they serve are really talking about and what they want to hear. And so, I think listening is key to rebuilding that trust.
And I’d be remiss if I don’t mention marginalized communities. And so that 26% that you talk about, I would love to know what that looks like for black Americans, for people of other races, for whom the media has not always been kind to in how we are depicted, in how our stories aren’t told in the nuanced way. We don’t get that advantage. And so, the default is not to trust and how do you dig yourself as a news organization out of that hole? How do you not just rebuild trust, but just build it because it wasn’t there to begin with. And so, I think there are a lot of conversations that need to be had around this. There’s a lot of really deep open reconciliation that needs to happen. And that’s something I’m not sure that news organizations are ready or positioned to do. You’ve seen a little bit of that with some news organizations talking about how they’ve harmed certain communities in the past, but what does that look like now and what more can we do moving forward?
Darragh Worland:
Mm-hmm. And some news organizations have issued apologies, for coverage, historical coverage of whether it’s black communities that was clearly biased. I think it’s been met with varying degrees of acceptance or “This is not enough.” For people who may not know the full scope of what you’re talking about when you say, “marginalized communities” and not feeling like the nuance of your stories are covered. Can you just explain that a little bit more for people who are not as familiar with what you’re talking about?
LaSharah Bunting:
Sure. So as a black woman, I see all things through that lens. I also see things through the lens as a fourth generation Midwesterner from Omaha, Nebraska. But the lens that leads is the black woman lens and I myself have seen instances where maybe a particular thing happens, or a person is featured, and it just doesn’t get it quite right. Maybe the person who is writing the story (doesn’t) see black Americans as a sort of more nuanced community. We’re not all that stereotypical, fill in the blank. There are black people who live in really big fancy houses and there are black people who live in Omaha, Nebraska. And one thing that I would always get frustrated with during election coverage is the average voter. And when they talk about the average voter, it’s not someone typically who looks like me. When we look at election coverage, it’s put through the sort of cis white heteronormative view versus putting it through a more diverse lens.
Darragh Worland:
And would you say that that’s largely because of a lack of diversity in the newsroom?
LaSharah Bunting:
Yes.
Darragh Worland:
Because of the people who are writing these stories, making decisions about what stories are being covered?
LaSharah Bunting:
Absolutely. Without a question, without a question. The people who are in the positions to make decisions about the focus of the story, the angle of the story, whether it is a story, hold quite a lot of power. There are many black journalists who can tell you stories or other journalists of other races who can tell you stories of how they wrote a really great nuanced piece that was stripped away into stereotypical sort of black and white ways of viewing things, not just across race lines. We’re talking about LGBTQ individuals; we’re talking about people with disabilities. We’re talking about the sort of this wide spectrum of experiences and each of us see life through a different lens and how can journalism be open to those different lenses.
Darragh Worland:
And I guess that comes back to the innovation that you were talking about. Innovation in the newsroom can also include diversity in the newsroom and having these different voices at the table really bringing innovative angles to news stories.
LaSharah Bunting:
Absolutely.
Darragh Worland:
Do you have any other innovative ways that we could tackle the challenge of rebuilding trust?
LaSharah Bunting:
I think we have to continue to connect with audiences in deeper ways. I want to believe that people want more. I think media has a responsibility to get out of its own comfort zone and figure out what are the ways that we can connect. I look at City Bureau’s Documenters [Network] project, which brings in citizens, residents who are concerned about their community to help document open public meetings. That’s such a beautiful, innovative way to bring in the community into the process of delivering news and information to one another and gets them more involved in the democratic process, improves our journalism. To me, when I think of what the big, innovative shining example is of what the future of journalism can look like, it’s things like that. It’s also Outlier Media and the work that they’re doing in Detroit around interfacing with residents through text message, right? That’s a profound way to meet the community where they are.
Darragh Worland:
What are they doing with text messages exactly?
LaSharah Bunting:
This is a great organization and I do have to disclose that I’m on the board, so I’ll say I’m a little biased, but even in my past role at Knight Foundation, it was an organization that I really thought was doing great work. So, they are reaching out to residents of Detroit in both delivering information to people via text, but also getting information. So “Have you experienced X? Have you seen this? Is this something that you’re dealing with? Text us, let us know. What are you seeing?” And what’s more personal than being able to text a news organization? That’s a very personal connection that you’re building just through the phone. I believe the journalism that they’re creating out of that, now in partnership with other news organizations in the area is strong because of that personal connection that other news organizations just don’t have.
Darragh Worland:
What are some of the most exciting innovations that you’re seeing in journalism today?
LaSharah Bunting:
I would go back to the great work that I’m seeing with City Bureau and the Documenters [Network] Project. Again, it’s that it gets it sort of my whole belief that you can’t have innovation without equity and an organization and project like the Documenters, it provides a space for everyone to be included in the process, and I think it’s a signal of what’s to come. I think news and information that’s more deeply rooted in community is the future. I think people are going to demand it and news organizations are going to have to get on board if they want to survive. It’s no longer just enough to sit in the ivory tower and reject the news from above. It’s about being in the trenches with everyone else and sharing what’s important to know and what’s important to understand to be a productive citizen of the world.
Darragh Worland:
And that’s another thing that social media has done, is that it’s given the public an opportunity to provide instantaneous feedback to news organizations that really can’t be ignored. It’s no longer about writing a letter to the editor and then sort of hoping that it gets some kind of airtime.
LaSharah Bunting:
There are some news organizations that still do ignore that, which is unfortunate. And again, I think points to the need for us to take that piece more seriously, to look deeply at what people are saying and why. Sometimes there is the truth in the criticism, and so let’s get to the heart of what that is and how to move forward and do better.
Darragh Worland:
And implement the changes. But I guess what you’re talking about is, okay, it’s not just airing one’s feedback anymore. Now it’s really a dialogue. Now we’re moving into beyond just feedback that may or may not land somewhere and result in some kind of change. Now we’re having a dialogue that’s resulting in some sort of change and impact.
LaSharah Bunting:
That’s how it should be. It’s to tell these stories, to get deep, to listen, to have deeper understanding, and to ensure that those around us have a deeper understanding. That’s why we got into this business and let’s do more of that. Let’s go deeper.
Darragh Worland:
Thank you so much for your time and congratulations on your position.
LaSharah Bunting:
Thank you. I appreciate it. It’s been a pleasure to chat about all this very important matters in journalism.
Darragh Worland:
That was LaSharah Bunting of the Online News Association. You can find out more about her and their work at journalists.org.
Thanks for listening. Is that a fact? is a production of the News Literacy Project, a nonpartisan education nonprofit building a national movement to create a more news-literate America. I’m your host, Darragh Worland. Our co-producers for this episode are Alee Quick and Mike Webb, our editor is Timothy Cramer, and our theme music is by Eryn Busch. To learn more about the News Literacy Project, go to newslit.org.